marty
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Post by marty on Jan 5, 2006 22:53:04 GMT -5
Looks like it may be a good idea to avoid oversized hinge pins.......
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Jan 7, 2006 9:06:00 GMT -5
Another take on hinge pins:Oversized Pivot Pins for TC Encore and Contender copyright 2005 by E. Arthur Brown Company, Inc. Reprint by Permission. 4353 State Highway 27 East, Alexandria, MN 56308 * sales@eabco.com * ph. 320-762-8847 * Home Oversized Pivot Pins Void All Warrantees... Here's Why: The center line position and alignment of the TC Encore and Contender barrel pivot is critical to the headspace of the chamber and lockup of the barrel to the frame. When we machine the underlugs for our barrels, they are clamped squarely on an extremely precise CNC Milling Machine. The pivot pin centerline is located to within 10ths of a 1/1000th of an inch. The hole is "peck" drilled at a computer programmed and consistent rate to insure that it does not wander and goes in straight and true. The hole is then CNC machine reamed to final dimension with the centerline at the same location while the part is still clamped squarely on the CNC machine. Each pivot pin hole is checked for tightness and alignment with pin gauges. We are sure that the Thompson Center Arms factory uses a similar if not equally precise system for locating the centerline of this hole, though they produce these in much higher mass quantities than we do. In order to get our barrels to headspace and lock up properly, we had to get our barrel lugs AT LEAST as precise as the TC factory and frankly, we were amazed at how close the TC Factory holds these dimensions. Our lug making system is certainly better than the mass production TC factory, but the factory is certainly better than any hand reamer. The bottom line is this: Anybody who thinks they can improve on this level of precision by HAND REAMING the pivot pin holes to fit oversized pivot pins is making a serious and potentially dangerous error. At the least, such modifications may ruin your gun and take away the barrel interchange ability that is part of the reason you bought your TC Encore or Contender in the first place. At the worst, it could affect the barrel to frame lock-up and headspace to a degree that will make your gun dangerous to shoot. Don't be talked into messing around with oversized pivot pins. We have instruments that can measure and detect whether the pivot pin hole has been modified to fit oversized pivot pins. There is no doubt about this. If you perform any modification to a barrel or frame it will void all warrantees but this one is especially bad because it is not repairable... barrels and/or frames that have been modified to fit oversized pivot pins may still work okay, but they are not improved over original condition. And if they don't work okay, they are very expensive garbage... not repairable and not replaceable because the warranty is void. Ah....yes....the "sage" E.A. Brown's take on the pins. I tell you Randy.....I really was wondering when someone would post that information. Bottom line? E.A. Brown is full of smoke and mirrors. I do not believe he even knows what he is really dealing with when speaking to a Encore or Contender. Now before I offer my opinion on his comments, I offer the direct comments from Mike Bellm himself from the e-newsletter he publishes: "So much smoke and mirrors, unadulterated bullxxxx. High tech, but they don't understand what they are working with in the first place. Yes, precision, but done to create slop where no slop should be in the first place. Precisely wrong every time. An oversize hinge pin can only effect headspace to the limits of taking the slop out of the fit at the hinge. NO way on earth does a snug fit at the hinge create a dangerous condition unless there was too much slop in the hinge area in the first place, and subsequently the barrel cannot teeter over center in its seat in the frame, thus effectively raising the locking bolts and making the lockup tighter. In extreme situations this might require lowering the top of the locking bolts or obtaining a lower set of locking bolts. YES, if you get carried away with hand reaming and do a reckless job, the barrel maker should not be held accountable for any ineptitude you applied to the barrel. This I agree with. However, it is repairable, though not a desireable thing to do and is costly. In all the tens of thousands of pins I have sold over the past 15 years plus, the worst case I have seen of a hinge pin hole ruined by hand reaming was done by none other than a high tech, papered "engineer." I did sleeve the hinge pin hole for him to salvage the barrel This is very satisfactory, but costly to do. Yes, hand reaming, even though you are only taking out a thous. or two primarily from the peaks of the machined finish inside the hole, does carry some risk. But you take a substantially greater risk every time you plunk down money even to some of the most notable custom makers. You can plunk down $500 to some of these shops and end up with either a totally dismal outcome or a costly, time consuming process getting them to make good on their warranty. BTW...... regarding my barrel work specifically.... do you see any warranty stated anywhere? A barrel that shakes and rattles on the frame, NO MATTER HOW PRECISELY THE MACHINE WORK WAS DONE MAKING IT, is still unacceptable and in most all cases does detract from the accuracy potential of any barrel. At one point one other custom maker made essentially the same statement in regard to the use of ovesize hinge pins voiding their warranty. They later relented and began selling our pins before going out of business. When will the techno-blabber smoke and mirrors end? I have seen so much of it lately. Sounds good, but has no substance. -Mike" Brought to you by The Slopster himself, Sloppy Snood
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Jan 7, 2006 9:19:53 GMT -5
Looks like it may be a good idea to avoid oversized hinge pins....... While many are familiar with Mr E.A. Brown and his resume, I want to plug for my friend Mike Bellm's expertise and background, specifically with Thompson Center firearms and barrel work in general. Sloppy presents the following information obtained directly from Mike Bellm's website: "Dennis M. "Mike" Bellm is the technical advisor and has been engaged in custom barrel work since February 2, 1979. From that date until his demise on August 23, 1989, the famous P.O. Ackley was his personal mentor, imparting an invaluable knowledge of barrels, barrel making, chambering, tooling, and an approach unrivalled in the various trades supporting T/C Contender, Encore, and G2 shooters today. For any shooting system to be viable, it is almost mandatory to go above and beyond what the original manufacturer provides in order to get the full potential that only true custom additions can give. The finest machine work is still no better than the finished firearm permits the shooter to use it. It is with this view in mind that the products and information in this store have been developed over the past 26 years of experimentation and "hands on" work on Contenders, and more recently Encores and the new G2, all with your shooting success and satisfaction being the foremost objective." -Sloppy
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Randy Wakeman
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Post by Randy Wakeman on Jan 7, 2006 22:51:57 GMT -5
A barrel that shakes and rattles on the frame, NO MATTER HOW PRECISELY THE MACHINE WORK WAS DONE MAKING IT, is still unacceptable and in most all cases does detract from the accuracy potential of any barrel. Brought to you by The Slopster himself, Sloppy Snood Those words make a strong case for completely avoiding all break-action rifles, period. But, we don't always want what we say or think we want. Effective hunting accuracy and bench rest quality groups are different animals. If every shot is inside 3" at our intended range, how many big game animals can live on the difference?
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Jan 8, 2006 10:14:43 GMT -5
Those words make a strong case for completely avoiding all break-action rifles, period. If every shot is inside 3" at our intended range, how many big game animals can live on the difference? Randy my friend, you hit the nail on the head! (karma fairy strikes). That is one of the reasons bolt-action rifles are some of the longe range target champs. I suppose I can say that if one desires to get the absolute most out of the TC Encore ML, options are available (and cheap ones at that!). Of course (as you mentioned previously) an Encore ML shooter needs to run the "stock box" through its paces before setting out to improve the gun. Maybe they'll have good fortune and not need to search for answers and solutions. And no. sub-MOA groups are never necessary to harvest an animal but I desire to remove as much inherent inaccuracy in the Encore before I try to shoot sub-MOA groups with my inaccurate eyesight and shaky sight picture from a tree 30 feet off the ground. At least then, it will be an "accurate miss." - Sloppy
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homelessjoe
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Post by homelessjoe on Jan 8, 2006 10:56:27 GMT -5
Sloppy...ever hear the saying 'you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear' ? jOe
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Jan 8, 2006 11:15:33 GMT -5
Sloppy...ever hear the saying 'you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear' ? jOe Nope, actually I haven't jOe. But I think I know whay you mean. -Sloopy
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Randy Wakeman
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Post by Randy Wakeman on Jan 9, 2006 11:25:18 GMT -5
For any shooting system to be viable, it is almost mandatory to go above and beyond what the original manufacturer provides in order to get the full potential that only true custom additions can give. "Viable"? Wow.
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Jan 13, 2006 11:43:20 GMT -5
Another take on hinge pins:Oversized Pivot Pins for TC Encore and Contender copyright 2005 by E. Arthur Brown Company, Inc. Reprint by Permission. 4353 State Highway 27 East, Alexandria, MN 56308 * sales@eabco.com * ph. 320-762-8847 * The bottom line is this: Anybody who thinks they can improve on this level of precision by HAND REAMING the pivot pin holes to fit oversized pivot pins is making a serious and potentially dangerous error. At the least, such modifications may ruin your gun and take away the barrel interchange ability that is part of the reason you bought your TC Encore or Contender in the first place. At the worst, it could affect the barrel to frame lock-up and headspace to a degree that will make your gun dangerous to shoot. Or it could take away from the financial profits of a Minnesotan gunsmith who might want to "fix" your TC barrel by welding an un-needed new, custom lug on your barrel or sell you an entirely new barrel. -Sloppy
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Randy Wakeman
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Post by Randy Wakeman on Jan 13, 2006 11:46:40 GMT -5
Sloppy, I just took your advice-- and bailed from the Encore. Shot two nice caribou with it, though.
And, I bought another A-5.
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Jan 16, 2006 11:12:48 GMT -5
And, I bought another A-5. Nice....now we're talking. Did you see the Browning custom shop A-5s? Very nice.....might order one but I am told its a year's wait. -Sloppy
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Randy Wakeman
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Post by Randy Wakeman on Jan 16, 2006 12:00:33 GMT -5
Not in the "budget."
No, just found a '69 A-5 20 Mag. Belgium make, so that should let you rest easy.
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Jan 17, 2006 19:52:16 GMT -5
Not in the "budget." No, just found a '69 A-5 20 Mag. Belgium make, so that should let you rest easy. Randy - Was the A-5 available as an option in 20 gauge when the A-5 first arrived on the scene in 1900? Curious. -Sloppy
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Randy Wakeman
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Post by Randy Wakeman on Jan 17, 2006 22:12:04 GMT -5
Not that I'm aware of-- FN A-5 production started in 1903, not available in the states till 1923. 16 ga. was not introduced until 1936.
It was the Remington Model 11 from 1911-1948 in 12, 16, and 20 ga under Browning license. Not sure of the exact dates Remington produced each gauge.
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slickheadhunter
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Post by slickheadhunter on Jun 4, 2006 10:21:13 GMT -5
Please dont cut the end of the barrel off! I have an Encore and had the same problem when I tried to stuff that much powder in there.Every muzzleloader shoots different just like a shotgun and chokes. I use 348gr power belts and kept reducing the amount of powder until three shots touched one another at 100 yards consistantly! I shoot 90gr of 777 and is very accurate. It has nothing to do with the end of the muzzle.With 90gr and a 348gr bullet the deer I've hit have all hit the ground real hard.
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