ENCORE PROBLEMS

[Randy Wakeman]

Well, you've got me talking more about the Encore than I think I ever have.

www.chuckhawks.com/t-c_encore.htm

My out of the box experience was a good one, though it seems my gun might be better than the average?

I sent my SS barrel off to have it black tefloned. When I got it back-- my sub 1" gun was a 6 - 7" gun. Boy was, I ever ticked off. Where I shoot / test is about an hour and a half drive. I drove home, opened up the forearm with sandpaper and a dowel rod, and drove straight back to the range. Bingo, it shot just as before. The forearm "thing" really can drive you nuts.

My Knight Revolution experience was poor-- I really, really dislike that gun. Really.

I guess I can sum up my feeling about the Encore by saying it is a good gun not "because" of being a break action, but in spite of. Despite the costly mods that several have gone through, it is well-built by muzzleloading standards-- too many muzzleloaders are built like tinker-toys in comparison.

The "versatility" touted by the Encore loses its appeal once you start adding up the price of barrel, forearm, new bases, etc., etc. I did have a .308 barrel for mine-- kicked like a mule, and was "wonderfully adequate."

I do get more Encore complaints than about most other muzzleloaders-- here, a SS / Camo Encore is "on sale" at Gander Mountain for $749. No great bargain, at least to me.

[Scott Kirsch]

randywakeman said:

Despite the costly mods that several have gone through, it is well-built by muzzleloading standards-- too many muzzleloaders are built like tinker-toys in comparison.

Accuracy modifications are not all that costly.

Encore Inexpensive Modifications:

1. BellM Hinge Pin ($9 for 1X pin to $15 2X,3X,or 4X pin)
2. BellM Sear Spring ($5)
3. BellM Locking Bolt Spring ($9)
4. BellM Hammer Spring ($9 for 44 lb or 51 lb spring; Factory TC is 30 lb)
5. Bellm Ultimate Spring Kit ($15 for Sear, Locking Bolt, and Hammer Spring)
6. Bellm "At Home" Trigger Job ($9 cost of sear spring + free on-line instructions)
7. Forend Floating ( PM Sloppy for Do-It-Yourself Instructions with aluminum pillars and JB-Weld)

Encore Modifications Over $50:

1. Cut off QLA, add 11° target crown, relocate front sight. ($75 by gunsmith David White)
2. Installation of 6-screw scope Base (by David White; around $35 including Weaver brand base)
3. Aluminum Muzzle Brakes ($100 by David White)

David White
c/o PRECISION RIFLEWORKS
1608-B White ROAD
FLORENCE, MS. 39073
Cellular: (601)-750-6314

4. BellM Trigger Job 2.5 to 7.5 lbs ($85 in cluding parts by Mike Bellm). Refer to www.bellmtcs.com.

As you can see, many items can be performed very cost effectively. The only "required" over $35 modification necessary is modification number 1 (provided that the owner cannot get the gun to shoot better than an 8" pie plate at 100 yards).
- Sloppy Snood

[Randy Wakeman]

sloppysnood" said:

Randy - A good "interference fit" between the Encore frame holes, the barrel lug, and the pin is critical and almost always results in better groups with an oversized hinge pin. I am not sure why this doesn't make sense to you though.

Likely because it takes me an hour and a half to watch "60 Minutes", I bought Enron stock, and believed Bill Clinton when he said he wouldn't lie to the American people?

Aside from that, I have trouble believing that Thompson cannot hold a .001" tolerance-- when every small, family owned machine shop within 30 miles of here can.

The problem with the majority of accuracy claims out there, is that there seldom is anything other than anecdotal evidence to support it. It seems such a very, very easy matter to shoot a 5 shot group with a specific, listed load with an oversized hinge pin and follow it with no other change than the factory hinge pin and another 5 shot group.

At least then, we are approaching some type of clinical evidence: group A= " ", group B= " ". At least then there is a baseline, and a vague control group. Whenever more than one thing is changed at a time, it jinxes the entire study attempt. Naturally, I understand that bedding cannot quickly be undone, or trigger jobs, etc. But a hinge pin switch is so easy, it is amazing that at this stage of the game no one (I know) has bothered with specifics.

As long as stocks are below the barrels, rifles recoil up. Vertically, the Encore lock-up is as tight as can be-- there is play from side to side, but the recoil pulse is straight back and up.

Additionally, a muzzleloading barrel is a low-stress application compared to a .375 H & H, .338 WinMag, or other real jolters that are available for the Encore. For a muzzleloader, the Encore's lock-up is stronger than it needs to be.

That said, no one I know looking for the best in accuracy from any rifle would consider a two piece stocked hammer gun as a remotely suitable platform for it-- certainly no bench rest shooter would.

[Scott Kirsch]

randywakeman said:

Aside from that, I have trouble believing that Thompson cannot hold a .001" tolerance-- when every small, family owned machine shop within 30 miles of here can.

The key phrase I used previously Randy is beyond 1/1000th of an inch or 0.001." My previous statement was:

"Thompson Center does not have the machining ability to drill a hole or manufacture a hinge pin beyond 1/1000th of an inch (0.001") in house. "

Ask the same shops to hold a high carbon steel dowel pin to the ten thousandths place or 1/10,000th of and inch or 0.0001." This is moving into machinery beyond what most mom&pop machine shops have. Probably are going to get more yes answers but check them with a real micrometer and you'll be surprised I'll bet.

Here's the exact diameter measurements of the Bellm Hinge Pins:

1X BellM Hinge Pin = 0.4377"
2X BellM Hinge Pin = 0.4383"
3X BellM Hinge Pin = 0.4393"
4X BellM Hinge Pin = 0.4403"

randywakeman said:

The problem with the majority of accuracy claims out there, is that there seldom is anything other than anecdotal evidence to support it. It seems such a very, very easy matter to shoot a 5 shot group with a specific, listed load with an over-sized hinge pin and follow it with no other change than the factory hinge pin and another 5 shot group.

Go to the forums at www.bellmtcs.com. Most shooters drop their 3-shot groups to sub-2" (from 4" to 8" originally) with just a hinge pin change. Another interesting observation is that some don't! Next attack is on the QLA itself. Chopping it off and 11°target crowning offers sub 1.5 MOA groups consistently.

Mind you, I am not the only one saying this. Check out the multiple posts at BellM and that "data" will suffice for me. Too many people saying the same thing after "just a hinge pin" and/or "just a QLA chop and target crown." I believe there were a few before and after targets on the site as well (some with just the hinge pin).

randywakeman said:

Whenever more than one thing is changed at a time, it jinxes the entire study attempt.

Believe me, I am a chemist and I know all about the scientific method. You are very correct here Randy.

randywakeman said:

Naturally, I understand that bedding cannot quickly be undone, or trigger jobs, etc. But a hinge pin switch is so easy, it is amazing that at this stage of the game no one (I know) has bothered with specifics.

Sounds like a new Chuck Hawks ML article to me. I'll even offer to help and come over and shoot and even write.

randywakeman said:

Additionally, a muzzleloading barrel is a low-stress application compared to a .375 H & H, .338 WinMag, or other real jolters that are available for the Encore. For a muzzleloader, the Encore's lock-up is stronger than it needs to be.

I have to agree to disagree here. I have never known a tighter lockup not to provide accuracy benefits on this gun. I have dropped enough BellM heavy duty locking bolts into Encores and received 100% positive feedback.

randywakeman said:

That said, no one I know looking for the best in accuracy from any rifle would consider a two piece stocked hammer gun as a remotely suitable platform for it-- certainly no bench rest shooter would.

Agreed Randy. But the BellM-instructed "free" trigger job can be easily performed by anyone in order to provide a trigger that is almost too good to believe (mine is). I am willing to send you my trigger group for inspection. I don't think that making a TC Encore a still target rifle was the point of this thread but I do know that it is definitely a "diamond in the rough." - Sloppy Snood

[Randy Wakeman]

You neglected my best explanation:

Likely because it takes me an hour and a half to watch "60 Minutes", I bought Enron stock, and believed Bill Clinton when he said he wouldn't lie to the American people?

Where does the assessment of Thompson's machining capabilities come from? Beyond that, is T/C so inept that they can't get TGP centerless ground shafting from a Ryerson, etc.?

www.thomsonindustries.com/Sections/Products/products_main.asp?PC=2000000&CL=1&L1=2000000&L2=&L3=&L4=&L5=&L6=&IT=news&lang=1

I sold Thomson (unrelated to T/C) 60 case shafting for many years. Their standard tolerance is +/- .00025.

This just isn't tough stuff to acquire.

[Scott Kirsch]

randywakeman said:

Where does the assessment of Thompson's machining capabilities come from?

Two places:

1. Personal conversations with Mike BellM himself and his informative website (I will inquire as to if he actually visited the TC Machine Shop or if he knows by some other information). Bottom line: I trust Mike and everything he has ever told me about TC and their Encore has been true from the standpoint of modifications and parts performance.

2. Indirectly via steel dowel gauging of the barrel lug holes and frame holes with hinges pins ranging from 0.4370" to 0.4410." I have an engineer at work that CAD designs gauge pins via CNC machinery (yes it is calibrated and accurate to 1/10,000th of an inch).

Several frame holes that I have pin gauged on the exact same frame (left side and right side of the same frame that is) have varied as much as 0.0025" from side to side. I do not use a caliper for these measurements because that it is not very accurate for a hole and repeatability of measurement is very difficult.

randywakeman said:

Beyond that, is T/C so inept that they can't get TGP centerless ground shafting from a Ryerson, etc.?

I do not know how inept the TC management is but the differences in the internal diameter of the frame holes and the looseness of the factory TC hinge pin are telling enough. I assess that the line worker and machinist(s) are limited by equipment and/or attention to detail. Keep in mind, I do not think anyone in my county would "object" if their Encore shot sub-2.5 MOA. To those hunters, "that's great!" To Sloppy, that is unacceptable knowing the technology that is available to make precision parts.

randywakeman said:

I sold Thomson (unrelated to T/C) 60 case shafting for many years. Their standard tolerance is +/- .00025.

Not an expert on tooling here Randy. Maybe you or I should send them a link? They will not listen anyway. Recall, this is the same company that is still sending out Encores with hex head over-travel screws that are too short (by as much as 1/16" of an inch) and you and I are talking about holding tolerances to 0.0001's of an inch. My belief is that TC doesn't care about those who want a "precision" Encore. They cater to the holy dollar and produce the minimum acceptable standards to the average hunter. - Sloppy

BTW Randy - That is a cool link.

[Randy Wakeman]

sloppysnood" said:

To those hunters, "that's great!" To Sloppy, that is unacceptable

Here it is the opposite-- it is all too sloppy.


Sorry.

[Scott Kirsch]

randywakeman said:

sloppysnood" said:

To those hunters, "that's great!" To Sloppy, that is unacceptable

Here it is the opposite-- it is all too sloppy.

Sorry.

Randy - Sloppy is slow and I have not had my morning coffee. And please don't apologize.....it is not necessary.

Do you mean to say that sub-2.5 MOA is not aceptable in your county (speaking in generality)?

"It's all too sloppy." I am assuming you mean fitment? Sorry bud. I'm S-L-O-W. -SlowOOpy SnoOd

BTW - I am not sure what else we can discuss on the Encore. My fingers are "typing tired."

Randy - Have you ever discussed so many topics related to the Encore before? I haven't (but dang this is fun).

[glow=white,2,300]What ever happened to BigBearHunter in this thread?

Sorry BBH if we hi-jacked this thread. Normally the R&S Staff leave the thread hi-jacking up to MrJBigfoot (aka Mikey).[/glow]

[maytom]

winmag said:

How about the Conicals or a buffalo Bullet.The rate of twist plays a part in the accuacy from sabot to Ball too.

I agree. If he can't shoot sabots or pellts, he should of gone with a different gun with a different twist rate.

[homelessjoe]

Sloppy...Sounds like yOu might've figgured out that Thompson Center should've stuck to making Hawkins and Renegades ?
jOe

[Scott Kirsch]

homelessjoe said:

Sloppy...Sounds like yOu might've figgured out that Thompson Center should've stuck to making Hawkins and Renegades ?
jOe

Well....maybe.

It just burns my a$$ that a tool company like TC can't manage to size a frame hole or at least "up size" the hinge pin for a tight fit. A friggin' locking bolt spring with increased poundage could not possibly cost that much to "upgrade."

I am strangely suspiscious that contracts with part suppliers prevent the product improvement path for the Encore. Too bad for TC. There is money to be made, just not for TC. They have let gunsmiths and specialty shops clean up the platform via retro-engineering. Oh well. Good to see somebody try to "do it right" from the start. -SlowoOpy

[Randy Wakeman]

sloppysnood said:

Well....maybe.

It just burns my a$$ that a tool company like TC can't manage to size a frame hole or at least "up size" the hinge pin for a tight fit. A friggin' locking bolt spring with increased poundage could not possibly cost that much to "upgrade."

I am strangely suspiscious that contracts with part suppliers prevent the product improvement path for the Encore. Too bad for TC. There is money to be made, just not for TC. They have let gunsmiths and specialty shops clean up the platform via retro-engineering. Oh well. Good to see somebody try to "do it right" from the start. -SlowoOpy

Alright, Sloopy. You have completely sucked the life out of my now hapless, helpless, hopeless earthly shell.

You've convinced me-- I just sold my Encore. Already, my teeth appear whiter, my skin softer, my vision is improving, and even food tastes better.

Thank you.

[Scott Kirsch]

randywakeman said:

Alright, Sloopy. You have completely sucked the life out of my now hapless, helpless, hopeless earthly shell.

You've convinced me-- I just sold my Encore. Already, my teeth appear whiter, my skin softer, my vision is improving, and even food tastes better.

Thank you.

Randy - Surely you jest! I am not trying to get anyone to sell their Encore. Just to realize that it can be much more than it is from Thompson Center out of the box.

As far as your teeth go, I suggest you close your lips when firing that Triple 7. It leaves a residue. - Sloppy

[Randy Wakeman]

sloppysnood said:

Randy - Surely you jest! I am not trying to get anyone to sell their Encore. Just to realize that it can be much more than it is from Thompson Center out of the box.

As far as your teeth go, I suggest you close your lips when firing that Triple 7. It leaves a residue. :Sloppy

I jest not, as it is jest in the box never to darken my dark, dank, dusty doorstep again. You beat me into submission, and now my QLA is gone PDQ.

You're right about Triple 7-- from now on, I'm putting them down a barrel.

Got any crud ring floss?

[Randy Wakeman]

Another take on hinge pins:


Oversized Pivot Pins for TC Encore and Contender
copyright 2005 by E. Arthur Brown Company, Inc. Reprint by Permission.
4353 State Highway 27 East, Alexandria, MN 56308 * [e-mail] * ph. 320-762-8847 * Home
Oversized Pivot Pins Void All Warrantees... Here's Why:
The center line position and alignment of the TC Encore and Contender barrel pivot is critical to the headspace of the chamber and lockup of the barrel to the frame. When we machine the underlugs for our barrels, they are clamped squarely on an extremely precise CNC Milling Machine. The pivot pin centerline is located to within 10ths of a 1/1000th of an inch. The hole is "peck" drilled at a computer programmed and consistent rate to insure that it does not wander and goes in straight and true. The hole is then CNC machine reamed to final dimension with the centerline at the same location while the part is still clamped squarely on the CNC machine. Each pivot pin hole is checked for tightness and alignment with pin gauges. We are sure that the Thompson Center Arms factory uses a similar if not equally precise system for locating the centerline of this hole, though they produce these in much higher mass quantities than we do. In order to get our barrels to headspace and lock up properly, we had to get our barrel lugs AT LEAST as precise as the TC factory and frankly, we were amazed at how close the TC Factory holds these dimensions. Our lug making system is certainly better than the mass production TC factory, but the factory is certainly better than any hand reamer.
The bottom line is this: Anybody who thinks they can improve on this level of precision by HAND REAMING the pivot pin holes to fit oversized pivot pins is making a serious and potentially dangerous error. At the least, such modifications may ruin your gun and take away the barrel interchange ability that is part of the reason you bought your TC Encore or Contender in the first place. At the worst, it could affect the barrel to frame lock-up and headspace to a degree that will make your gun dangerous to shoot. Don't be talked into messing around with oversized pivot pins.
We have instruments that can measure and detect whether the pivot pin hole has been modified to fit oversized pivot pins. There is no doubt about this. If you perform any modification to a barrel or frame it will void all warrantees but this one is especially bad because it is not repairable... barrels and/or frames that have been modified to fit oversized pivot pins may still work okay, but they are not improved over original condition. And if they don't work okay, they are very expensive garbage... not repairable and not replaceable because the warranty is void.