Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Dec 6, 2005 21:22:49 GMT -5
HighTechRedNeck - Before trying to bed your contender barrel(s), try something much cheaper and a "do it yourself" with a cordless drill. Clean the bore of your barrel as directed with J-B Non-Embedding Bore Cleaning from Brownells. www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=1160&s=Real simple to use. This simple cleaning can do amazing things (improvements) for rifle accuracy. I think I posted this somewhere else but here is the method again: 1. Take a cordless drill and tighten a 2-3 feet cleaning rod into the chuck. 2. Add a brass brush on the end of the cleaning rod and tighten. Moisten a couple cotton cleaning patches with gun oil and wrap them over the brass brush until they stick to it. 3. Apply some JB Non-Embedding Bore Cleaner (see Brownells' site; exclusive distributer of the product) to the patch covered brush and insert into the chambered end of the barrel. Follow the instructions on the JB container and slowly spin the drill and cleaning rod while moving the brushing slowly from one end of the barrel to the other. Do not stop and let the brush spin in one place in the barrel for more than 1-2 seconds at most. 4. Use the same technique in your receiver area but don't overdo it. See the instructions on the JB. Clean the gun up per the directions and go try it out with the ammunition that is causing the problems. J-B Non-Embedding Bore Cleaner works wonders and its pretty cheap. Give this a try and let us know how it works out. - Sloppy Snood
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Post by Rackman on Dec 6, 2005 23:33:03 GMT -5
Wow all the hype I hear or read about the T/C Encore must be really built up. With all the problems I hear about here, I wouldn't want to buy one. I was gonna get a ML "Encore", but now I might think about going to a Omega or a Knight. Any rebuttal on that guys?
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Dec 7, 2005 6:16:55 GMT -5
Wow all the hype I hear or read about the T/C Encore must be really built up. With all the problems I hear about here, I wouldn't want to buy one. I was gonna get a ML "Encore", but now I might think about going to a Omega or a Knight. Any rebuttal on that guys? Rikki Racketman - Sloopster shoots the .50 cal TC Encore muzzleloader year in and year out. All the modifications really have been to make it shoot 0.5 to 1 MOA consistently. Mine does....now. All the accuracy improvements would apply to other guns with the exception of hinge pins and the poopy TC Encore QLA being off axis with the bore. One item not mentioned here is exactly how sweet the trigger can be on this gun. Super-easy to do your own trigger job and get great accuracy. The other item is handling. Doesn't seem like much on the surface but the way the gun holds in my hand, is easy to manuever, the "feel," etc. are just awesome. It does not surprise me that this gun is as popular as it is. Especially with barrel interchangeability! Anyway, for a dedicated ML, I'll stick with my Encore (too much time and $$$ invested). If I were to but a new ML, dump TC and Knight....just get the Savage ML-II. You will never look back. -Sloppy
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Randy Wakeman
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Post by Randy Wakeman on Dec 7, 2005 10:35:20 GMT -5
Wow all the hype I hear or read about the T/C Encore must be really built up. With all the problems I hear about here, I wouldn't want to buy one. I was gonna get a ML "Encore", but now I might think about going to a Omega or a Knight. Any rebuttal on that guys? There is scant little in muzzleloading that isn't hyped up. I actually like my Encore, and it is basically stock. Opening up the forearm is all it took to get it to shoot. It can be picky, but I have no need for it to shoot 20 bullets well. It is handy, and well-built (good materials and strong action) compared to many muzzleloaders. Thompson has had a few barrel problems, but not all QLA or coned muzzles are eccentric-- mine isn't. The hinge pin "issue" makes no sense to me-- the scope is attached to the barrel. The trigger is adequate, a bit heavy, but nothing that affects my range results. But yes, I think you can do better.
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Dec 7, 2005 17:49:40 GMT -5
There is scant little in muzzleloading that isn't hyped up. The hinge pin "issue" makes no sense to me-- the scope is attached to the barrel. But yes, I think you can do better. Randy - A good "interference fit" between the Encore frame holes, the barrel lug, and the pin is critical and almost always results in better groups with an oversized hinge pin. I am not sure why this doesn't make sense to you though. If there exists "play" between the frame holes, hinge pin, and barrel lug, accuracy will suffer. Why? Even though the scope is sighted in on the barrel, the bullet still has to travel down the barrel. This is key in my mind. You may have the crosshairs dead on the target but when the forces from the powder ignition and bullet travel in the rifling "push" back on a loose hinge area the bullet may depart the muzzle slightly off target from where the shooter originally placed the crosshairs. It all happens very quickly. Non-concentrically machined QLAs and rough trigger surfaces only amplify the problem. I am not trying to start an argument, only trying to explain. I know several Encore shooters that have completed the basics of oversizing the hinge pin, cleaning up the trigger face, sear, and hammer and all have reported tighter groups and more consistent accuracy with "pet" loads. - Sloppy Snood
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Randy Wakeman
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Post by Randy Wakeman on Dec 7, 2005 19:14:15 GMT -5
Randy - A good "interference fit" between the Encore frame holes, the barrel lug, and the pin is critical and almost always results in better groups with an oversized hinge pin. I am not sure why this doesn't make sense to you though. It isn't an interference fit, it has to be a slip fit otherwise you couldn't break the action open. The lock-up is better than many break actions as it-- NEF Huntsman and various others have no hinge pin at all. The strength is in the dual spring loaded lugs. They tried a single locking lug, but the gun could not be broken open. With dual lugs, one side cracks before the other. T/C rarely misses a beat when it comes to gizmos, accessories, and more gizmos. E-Z extractors, bore butter, teflon tape from your hardware store, Gorilla grease, etc. Offering hinge pins would be effortless for them-- they have not been able to find any value in it. Of course, the trigger needs work-- lawyer stuff. If I hadn't managed 3/4 in groups with a std. factory hinge pin that falls out easily, I guess I'd be looking for answers. As is, mine shoots better than it really should. The forearm is the "biggie," in my Encore and my Contender G2.
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Randy Wakeman
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Post by Randy Wakeman on Dec 8, 2005 1:29:44 GMT -5
Sloppy, Let me be the first to admit that if "it works," it works. If switching from Diet Coke to Diet Pepsi tightens groups for someone, hey-- no reason to not drink Diet Pepsi. The devil is all in the details, because I don't know what "tighter" and "more consistent" means to someone individually. 1/10th of an inch? 1/2 inch? I may sound skeptical of accuracy improvement claims, and I am. Primarily because the improvements are invariably claimed by those selling the parts. It really is hard for me to believe that something as simple as a hinge pin cannot be addressed by today's modern machining techniques and tolerances. Stranger things have happened though. Even stranger in the case of T/C, as they could so easily sell the "Encore Performance Kit" with three hinge pins at a production cost of a dollar, and sell the thing for $50 like hotcakes. They make a lot of scratch as is by selling things that have no value, and absolutely DO NOT work like "Bore Butter"-- so they really should have no reservations about selling something that does work. Here's what I get all the time, whether Encore or any other rifle. Maybe you've heard something like this: Yep, I've got myself a REAL SHOOTER! Had the action blueprinted, trigger job, had my riflesmith polish the heck out of everything, recrowned the barrel, added a touch of bedding, floaterd the barrel, made cistom 1-piece tactical steel scope bases for me, lapped my scope rings, and topped it all off with a tactical Swaro-Zeiss disintegrator scope! This baby shoots an inch all day long, day in, day out. What a shooter!Q. Hey, that's great! How did it shoot before all the mods? A. Dunno-- never shot it. Am I the only one who has heard a similar story?
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Post by Rackman on Dec 8, 2005 3:47:05 GMT -5
Hey Sloopster. Can you give me any more info on the Savage ML II? I am very interested in getting a ML and putting a scope on it. I like the easy clean , break down, etc, camo, you know, the norm. You can PM me if you like. Any assistance you can give would be very much appreciated.
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Randy Wakeman
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Post by Randy Wakeman on Dec 8, 2005 16:14:57 GMT -5
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Dec 8, 2005 16:26:36 GMT -5
It isn't an interference fit, it has to be a slip fit otherwise you couldn't break the action open. The lock-up is better than many break actions as it-- NEF Huntsman and various others have no hinge pin at all. Randy - My meaning of "interference fit" is in reference to the microscopic uneveness of the mating metal surfaces between the hinge pin and lug and frame holes. When an oversized hinge pin is pressed into the frame holes and barrel lug hole, the microscopic "hills and valleys" are knocked down and become smoother every time the action is opened and closed. The frame holes' surfaces will be knocked down provided that the steel of the pin is of equal or increased hardness when compared to the frame's metal. This is the guiding principle (precision) used in Formula One auto racing for cylinder sleeves, rings, and pistons. The industry gives it a more technical name called "micro-finishing" metal surfaces. This helps accuracy in shooting Encores. The strength is in the dual spring loaded lugs. They tried a single locking lug, but the gun could not be broken open. With dual lugs, one side cracks before the other. I agree Randy. But development of the Encore's barrels with the thicker, heavier duty barrel lug did not take into account of the increased mass of the lug and barrels. The barrel locking lugs were also beefed up but ironically, the barrel locking lug spring is a carry-over from the older design (wi.e. weaker than it needs to be). Hence, a stronger barrel locking lug spring is desired (not necessarily "required" per se) to maintain a tight lock-up. T/C rarely misses a beat when it comes to gizmos, accessories, and more gizmos. E-Z extractors, bore butter, teflon tape from your hardware store, Gorilla grease, etc. Offering hinge pins would be effortless for them-- they have not been able to find any value in it. Thompson Center does not have the machining ability to drill a hole or manufacture a hinge pin beyond 1/1000th of an inch (0.001") in house. This is a major problem and is the reason that the degree of "play" is present out of the box for an Encore. I would say this would not be effortless as it is not possible with TC's current tooling. It is interesting to note that many internal combustion engine's pistons and cylinders are machined to 1/10,000th (one ten-thousandths of an inch). And the engine's run smoother, compression deterioration is more even over time, and horsepower is higher while mileage is increased. Just some points to ponder. -Sloppy Snood
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Randy Wakeman
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Post by Randy Wakeman on Dec 8, 2005 20:04:13 GMT -5
I'm prolifically ponderous. For a micro-finish to "work," both parts must be to the same level of precision. You can't have ABEC 7 or ABEC 9 tolerance spindle bearings without close tolerance shafting and a close tolerance housing at the same time. I won't begin to tout a break action rifle as inherently accurate, but even the H & R Sidekick proved to be a shooter for me with a barrel that falls to the ground with the forearm removed. Recoil is up, not a torque. Good luck here with the Encore, with factory internals. The forearm can be a problem, that was clear from the start. Still, it is very difficult to knock a 3/4 MOA muzzleloader. If most come with a "gotta do list," well . . . no one likes that. It is amazing, at least to me, and I am easily amazed that if indeed a proper hingepin is so easily proved to be vital to customer satisfaction, that T/C would not add them as a matter of course from an outside vendor. A great deal of their parts are outsourced already, so a proper pin does not seem to be too much to ask for on a $650 - $800 or so muzzleloader that is presented and sold as a premium, flagship product. It could be a perpetually perpetrated unpunny pin of profuse, prolific puzzlement or penetratingly pugilistic punishment? My brain is starting to bleed a bit.
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Dec 8, 2005 22:44:04 GMT -5
It could be a perpetually perpetrated unpunny pin of profuse, prolific puzzlement or penetratingly pugilistic punishment? I cannot begin to compete with a statement like that . I resign myself on that statement.....Randy is king. The Sloopster has been silenced (for one post anyway). -Sloppy
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Post by Phishy on Dec 8, 2005 23:00:10 GMT -5
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Dec 8, 2005 23:04:07 GMT -5
For a micro-finish to "work," both parts must be to the same level of precision. You can't have ABEC 7 or ABEC 9 tolerance spindle bearings without close tolerance shafting and a close tolerance housing at the same time. True but you can for a hinge pin and lug/frame fit. Why? We are not so much interested in smoothing the surfaces up as we are with a tight fit and maintaining that fit. Combined with a tight lockup at the barrel locking lugs, these two items alone almost always increase grouping. The forearm can be a problem, that was clear from the start. Still, it is very difficult to knock a 3/4 MOA muzzleloader. Yes....that dang forend can be an accuracy culprit as well. My forend was. My solution was sanding the ears and trough in the walnut. I also drilled out the forend's retaining screw holes and over-sized them in order to insert 2 aluminum "spacers" for floating the forend a good 1 to 1.5 mm off the barrel. I set the spacers in the drilled out holes with J-B Weld and let it dry overnight. I wrapped my barrel with enough masking tape to help create the proper spacing. Minor adjustments to even up the float was accomplished by using a dremel tool with grinding bit to grind away the aluminum and J-B Weld where I wanted it. I'll post a write-up in the DIY or Do-It-Yourself area forum in the near future. .....so a proper pin does not seem to be too much to ask for on a $650 - $800 or so muzzleloader that is presented and sold as a premium, flagship product. I never saw an Encore with a muzzleloading barrel for more than $575 in Indiana (blue/walnut). I paid $500 flat for mine in 2000. Thank you for presenting your knowledge about the Encore Randy. I know I am learning so I can naturally say that everyone else is too. Thank you. - Sloppy
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Scott Kirsch
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Post by Scott Kirsch on Dec 8, 2005 23:17:25 GMT -5
Hey Sloopster. Can you give me any more info on the Savage ML II? I am very interested in getting a ML and putting a scope on it. I like the easy clean , break down, etc, camo, you know, the norm. You can PM me if you like. Any assistance you can give would be very much appreciated. rackman - That's easy. Here are my personal choices from the current potpourri of muzzleloaders available. 1. Savage ML-II: Shoots smokeless powder, user-adjustable sweet Accu-Trigger; proof-tested barrels (safety plus), and accurate as heck. My #1 choice for 3 years and I still don't own one! Only "drawback" is that it is a 100% dedicated muzzleloading firearm. No barrel swaps like TC Encore. 2. TC Encore: Another perennial favorite. Shotgun barrels, rifle barrels, muzzleloading barrels, and shotgun muzzleloading barrels. Versatility and reliability at their best. Built like a battleship, an Encore will outlast its owner. 3. Austin&Halleck 320 and 420 ( late addition): If muzzleloading were a beauty pagent, Austin&Halleck would win hands down. Very beautiful ML rifles in their wooden stock forms. Styling reminds me very much of Weatherby centerfire rifles. But waht about accuracy, reliability? 1 MOA accurate and another "built like a tank" platform. Highly recommended. 4. TC Omega or Knight Revolution. Both are very easy to clean and tout sub 1.5 MOA outof the box. Few reports of problems with Revolution though (see Randy Wakeman's post below). - Sloppy Snood
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