Muzzleloader question

[mtman]

I'm looking at the CVA line, the Elkhorn in particular. I know very little about muzzleloaders, any help. CVA a good line of guns?

[smokepolehall]

I really don't know much about the CVA's, they seem to have recalls and bbl. trouble alot. Of course some problems may stem from folks putting to much powder down the bore. If your short of funds for a top of the line ML, buy one and keep yer loads 100gr. blk. powder or less , pyrodex trip7 powders.

[Randy Wakeman]

mtman said:

I'm looking at the CVA line, the Elkhorn in particular. I know very little about muzzleloaders, any help. CVA a good line of guns?

By no means.

www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm

[arkansasdon]

Yeah they do have some recalls, I have there old Stage Horn in-line, and there was a recall on the barrel, "Breech Plug" faulty, but they made it right, sent a new barrel. I've killed alot of deer, hogs with it and still in service. I'd buy another CVA "personally" cause they did make it right on the new barrel, matter of fact I bought my wife a CVA In-line last year, mine is 10 yrs old and still shoots dang tight groups

[Randy Wakeman]

Fact is, CVA has the worst safety track record in muzzleloading.

Fact is, "CVA" is not a manufacturer of anything.

Fact is, CVA barrels are underproofed for their recommended loads.

Fact is, shooters have CVA guns fail REGULARLY.

Fact is, I have seen several of the failed guns, sworn statements, and interviewed the victims.

Fact is, CVA guns are built to no known standards.

Fact is, CVA guns are not all test-fired or proofed.

Fact is, six-figure settlements are regularly paid to CVA victims to keep them out of court.

Fact is, litigation against CVA is currently in progress.

Fact is, CVA is not a real company or manufacturer. BPI exists as an import company, Spanish owned, and functions as the importer of CVA branded, New Frontier (Beartooth), and Winchester Muzzleloading branded items-- little else.

Fact is, I cannot prove to anyone that they are in great danger by shooting one individual CVA gun.

The much, much sadder fact is-- I cannot show that CVA branded products are safe. Sadder yet, nor can they.

Savage can, and has. Knight can, and has. Thompson can, and has.

I can't prove that any specific Pinto WILL explode. I cannot specifically prove that a specific set of Firestone tires ARE defective. I cannot prove that President Clinton had sexual relations with "THAT woman."

The facts show an area of great concern. The individual is the judge of the facts, and his own personal tolerance for unnecessary risk. Muzzleloading is not a government regulated industry, and has not shown any ability to regulate itself.

The consumer gets that choice.

[Brian89]

I had a stag horn cva and i had nothing but problems with it, seemed like they were really picky about what brands of sabots and powder that you shoot. That thing was so light to that the recoil was almost unbearable when you had to shoot it about 12 times to get it to group, ya i have killed deer with it but, nothing like i have with my encore..

[arkansasdon]

I know around here alot of folks buy them, My old stage Horn In-Line I shoot 90 gr. 2F Black Powder with 252 gr. sobot Hollow Point Boat Tail Bullet. Hardly the recoil, great groups @ 100 Mywifes CVA Stage Horn (few years new than mine) shoots 75 gr. 2F Black powder with a 223 gr. Aero Tip Bullet by Power Belt, topped off with a Red Dot Scope, great shooter.
Now Serious Randy, if all this was happening , Cabela's , Bass Pro Shop, Gun dealers would pull CVA's product off there shelves, I think ya gettin alittle far there. Plus we would here it on the nightly news as much the anti's are out there would love to air that. I've been shootin muzzleloaders for 25 plus yrs, my first one was a CVA and still have it and I owned several since then. The last one I bought for my self CVA yes it had a recall notice shortly after I purchased it, and the barrel was replaced. Just like cars, recalls happen, are ya goin to stop buyin Chevy or Ford because of the recall manufactures problem arise too, Problems happen do to some person doesnt follow loading directions , too much powder , bullet or ball not properly seated firm on the powder (bad news) wrong powder(another bad one), not cleaned properly(accuracy lost), doubled balled or bullet (Ruptured barrel or aka pipe bomb ) , doubled charged(big big hassard), it goes on. I've been around "Front loaders along time to know what could happen and was taught by the best of them too (in my book)
99% of the time what goes wrong is the user, not the product , but alway easy to cast the blame on the product or manufacture.
CVA is been out there along time buildin affordable Muzzloaders and I will and others will continue to purchased there product.

[mtman]

Well.....NOW I've got think this over!!!

[arkansasdon]

I really hope this thread didn't comfuse ya, its like Nascar, some hate #24 Jeff Gordon , but I like him, but I dont like #20 Tony Steward but some do, weight it out you will come up with the answer, ton's of Muzzleloaders out there, all of of them are good, aint NO bad ones, just what works for ya ;D Good luck & Happy huntin ;D

[Randy Wakeman]

arkansasdon said:

Now Serious Randy, if all this was happening , Cabela's , Bass Pro Shop, Gun dealers would pull CVA's product off there shelves,

Why? They are just selling boxes, and have no liability. Does anyone really think that Wally World knows anything about what they are selling?

It is not a matter of speculation that CVA guns have been a problem-- that's why they were sued out of business in the first place.

There are no muzzleloading standards-- much less any private or government entity to regulate them. No one wants regulation, however-- there is no mistake about the large body of very clear, competent evidence of deficient CVA product. It is a horrible mess, and the injuries I've seen would make anyone want to hurl.

BPI, the Spanish owned entity that sells under "CVA" branding, shells out fat nice out-of-court settlements regularly. A breechplug in your skull, more correctly not having a breechplug embedded in your skull is worth what to any individual is something I can't put a price on.

After it happens, that's all you can try to do.

There is nothing to suggest that CVA guns are EVER proofed or properly tested with their recommended loads. Hard to believe, but quite true.

[arkansasdon]

I subscribe to 2 magazines on Muzzleloading,
1. IBHA "International Black Powder Hunting Association
2. Rebel Publishing "Muzzleloader"
and never heard any such thing about CVA or any of the others ML's manufactures problems. I would really think that 2 popular mags would publish articles on what you are postin on this thread..

Another is why is pro hunters like O'Neil Williams, Jason Houser, still promoting CVA along with many more. Like I said be fore most accidents with muzzleloaders happen when the user dont know what there doin, like double charge, wrong powder (whether 2,3,4 F) double ball, or bullet, too much powder, wrong projectial for twist of barrel, and so on. I think you are bein unfair to owners of CVA's and other manufacture owners of there ML's. I know for a fact that all 7 of my CVA's are fine ML's shoot exceptional groups at 100 yards. I still shoot my first CVA, 25 plus years and one heck of a round ball shooter rifle I used to shoot competive with for 18 years and I bet theres alot more on this board would say the same for there CVA's or the other you are slamming. You are intitled to your opinion as for I am too.

[loserchumpandfool]

arkansasdon said:

I subscribe to 2 magazines on Muzzleloading,
1. IBHA "International Black Powder Hunting Association
2. Rebel Publishing "Muzzleloader"
and never heard any such thing about CVA or any of the others ML's manufactures problems. I would really think that 2 popular mags would publish articles on what you are postin on this thread..

Another is why is pro hunters like O'Neil Williams, Jason Houser, still promoting CVA along with many more. Like I said be fore most accidents with muzzleloaders happen when the user dont know what there doin, like double charge, wrong powder (whether 2,3,4 F) double ball, or bullet, too much powder, wrong projectial for twist of barrel, and so on. I think you are bein unfair to owners of CVA's and other manufacture owners of there ML's. I know for a fact that all 7 of my CVA's are fine ML's shoot exceptional groups at 100 yards. I still shoot my first CVA, 25 plus years and one heck of a round ball shooter rifle I used to shoot competive with for 18 years and I bet theres alot more on this board would say the same for there CVA's or the other you are slamming. You are intitled to your opinion as for I am too.

why would a major magazine not publish a negative article on a product that pays alot of advertising money?i wonder...........and IMHO there is no such thing as a professional hunter.fisherman yes..hunter no.why does will primos shoot the brand of bow he does?cause he gets paid to.why does mark drury wear a particular brand of camo?he gats paid to.why wont a national magazine publish negative stuff on products?bad business.why 99.999999% of so-called product reviews from national magazines pure crap.cause they are paid to write nice stuff.ever notice that in magazines like deer&deer hunting and bowhunter that when they have thier gear review magazine out they products they are "reviewing"have advertisements on the next page?kinda funny to me.ever notice how these so-called pro hunters never write about bad outfittede hunts?cause then they wont get any more free hunts to sing the praises about.

[arkansasdon]

Come on Hoos, you expect me to believe every bit, you know as well , there are still some eithcal folks out there, that would promote a product they believe is good, and just not for the money, yeah there alot of them jerks would sell anything just for the money, but there are a few good ones that truely believe what they promote, Field Test, magazines do field test.

[Randy Wakeman]

arkansasdon said:

I subscribe to 2 magazines on Muzzleloading,
1. IBHA "International Black Powder Hunting Association
2. Rebel Publishing "Muzzleloader"
and never heard any such thing about CVA or any of the others ML's manufactures problems. I would really think that 2 popular mags would publish articles on what you are postin on this thread..

Another is why is pro hunters like O'Neil Williams, Jason Houser, still promoting CVA along with many more. Like I said be fore most accidents with muzzleloaders happen when the user dont know what there doin, like double charge, wrong powder (whether 2,3,4 F) double ball, or bullet, too much powder, wrong projectial for twist of barrel, and so on. I think you are bein unfair to owners of CVA's and other manufacture owners of there ML's. I know for a fact that all 7 of my CVA's are fine ML's shoot exceptional groups at 100 yards. I still shoot my first CVA, 25 plus years and one heck of a round ball shooter rifle I used to shoot competive with for 18 years and I bet theres alot more on this board would say the same for there CVA's or the other you are slamming. You are intitled to your opinion as for I am too.

Obviously, no advertising driven magazine would publish articles that would jeopardize advertisers. O'Neil Williams? I think you have answered your own question.

Accuracy and safety are not related items-- whether a gun groups or not has nothing to do with design materials specifications, testing, or quality control.

Opinion? The injuries are fact. No one that has a breechplug impaled in his head first shot out of the box needs any "opinion" as to what has taken place.

New gun, in the ER 2 hrs. and two minutes after the dated sales reciept, your wife witnessing it among others, and only the one shot worth of pellets missing. Opinion?

Things are dangerous until they are proved not to be, not assumed.

Erik Zenger is one of the several injured CVA shooters:

" It was determined later by several specialists that 2 separate, but related manufacturer defects, ultimately resulted in not only my gun failing, but the many others that these specialist had investigated. These two defects were 1) the steel the barrels were made of was substandard and 2) the pre-drilled scope mounting holes were drilled too deep. This ultimatly caused the barrel to split around the circumference at the point of these holes. In my guns case, the part that blew out the back of the gun was actually the last 1.5 inches of the barrel (which included the breech plug), then of course the bolt mechanism, the spring and the plastic end cap at the back of the gun.

I have the written reports about the defects from one of the specialists that I would be more than happy to forward on to you.

Yes, you are correct that I have settled my case. It was a very disappointing settlement, and is actually becoming more and more disappointing as I have both new and continuing medical problems. I was surprised that I was not required to sign a confidentiality agreement at the time of settlement. I have often second guessed the whole settlement process and my final decision....but there is nothing that I can do now. To make matters worse, I was "sued" by my health insurance company for all of their out of pocket expenses related to my care.

I would be more than happy to help in any way possible to make people aware of the dangers of CVA guns, and to bring down CVA and the capitalistic pigs that run it.

The personal injury lawyers that take the cases to Federal Court don't pick and choose the make and model of what caused an injury. No viable, credible instances of Knight, Thompson, Savage, injuries due to defective materials or workmanship exist. The opposite is true for the ever-increasing CVA and Traditions instances. Coincidence?

It is so very simple-- you have muzzleloaders proofed to only 10,000 PSI. Not a service load, but a testing standard. Along with those muzzleloaders comes a manual instructing you to use three pellet loads that may develop over 25,000 PSI--- OVER TWO AND ONE HALF TIMES THE PROOFING STANDARD. And, you have multiple injuries all across the country. Surprised?

Yet, so very few folks are aware of the very basic parameters of barrel design, minimum yield and tensile strength of a material, wall thickness, and the design parameters determined by Lame's equation. Then you add service factor. Then, you test. Then, AFTER extensive testing, you offer it for sale-- not before.

But, the basic testing present in every pressure containing cylinder, every piece of hydraulic hose, minimum values for metals found in a Ryerson's book-- none of it exists in muzzleloading. Few know who "CVA" really is.

Just because your Pinto did not catch on fire, or your neighbor was not injured due to Bridgestone-Firestone tires doesn't mean it didn't happen. It is a matter of public record by now, with no dispute.

Take a non-regulated industry like muzzleloading, subject to no more regulation than air rifles, and it should be clear that you have no assurance of anything.

The "old" CVA was sued out of business for defective product. Just what would cause anyone to possibly believe anything at all has changed?

[arkansasdon]

well Randy from what I hear and understand by others , that you are well known about ML's and write for some mags, your knownledgable in the field of "frontloaders" and I respect ya of that, but what ya sayin could be true, it happens in the world of manufactures, I believe that many problems with ML's or reloadin is the "Uneducated One's" are at fault, Ive seen in the past years of plinkin at ranges that uneducated folks with a new ML will pack that barrel thinkin that more powder is better. I cant help from givin these types of folks assistance too much powder is a waste, "see the 1 ft. flame at the end of the barrel after you fire, start off lower and work your way up to a charge that your ML likes, try different bullets, conical, saboted, variuos weights and types, each one like to eat and spit out diffrently, try regular Black powder, or other man made propelents for ML's (personally I dont like the pellets) but some folks will over charge a ML or make them big mistakes as of the followin , too much powder, wrong type of black powder or propelent, double ball or bulleted, not a clean barrel, the list is endless. CVA has there recalls, I know I've had one recall barrel with bad breach plug. But seriously Randy I havent had any other problems with any of my CVA's (I own several) as I stated before shot one competively on the west coast for many , many many years, the only 2 things not stock on the gun is the triggers,I put Davis Traggers & the Lock , I went with Siler Lock, it has the stock 33 inch 7/8 inch flat to flat 1 & 66 twist barrel cap lock with large front blade and buck horn style rear site. I shoot 85 gr. 2F Black Powder with a .490 Speer Round Ball with .015 Pillow tickin patchin. That rifle likes that load, shot it for 18 years competitively (Paper Matches and Novality Matches). Personally I havent had but one problem 10 year ago with the Stage Horn In-Line recall on the barrel, they made it right and it shoots fine. I apperciate ya talkin back and forth with me and your post are much apperciated, never know Randy might be lookin to buy a new ML, Remington or Savage, but wont shoot that 777 stuff, I'm a Black Powder man