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Post by THE GOB-FATHER on Oct 16, 2005 10:17:48 GMT -5
This mornin that if I go back in the woods directly behind the big Oak Tree in the far Northeast corner of the woods about 150 yds in I'll find a swamp and in that swamp there will be "5 Large Racked Deer" inhabiting it. He tells me to set up on the 4 way logging road intersection and "wait till about 7:00 this mornin. That's when you'll see 'em start comin your way". He continues to say that 2 does will come out first and then a crotch horn buck then the 5 big boys will follow. So I do as he says and get set up on the 4 way intersection of the logging roads and wait till 7. It's now 7:30 and I still haven't seen anything. I start to wonder if I'm even in the right spot or if I spooked 'em on the way in?? Then all of a sudden I catch some movement. Sure enough it's the two does starting to come my way. So I'm thinkin "Alright!". Then all of a sudden here comes that 4 pointer he was talking about!! I'm thinkin to myself "Wow, the farmer sure did put me in the right spot!" And then... ffffffffffffffffffffmmmmmmmmmmmttttttt. I sling an arrow through that crotch horn's vitals!! The deer is gutted and dragged out of the woods before those "5 large racked deer" even come close to where I was set up!  Ok.... so that didn't happen, but there is a reason I made this story up. The reason being is because those "5 large rack deer" are not really a realistic part of hunting here in NY. New York hasn't really been known for it's deer and for a reason... there just aren't big numbers of big deer here (at least where I hunt). Don't get me wrong... I've seen some monsters harvested up north where I'm from but those were few and far between. My whole point is that NY has to get a better QDM mentality and start something to get our deer population up to par with some of the other states that are consistently producing big racked deer. There is talk about how DEC is planning to put in a "point restriction" aspect to our hunting laws... but when and if that will ever happen is anyones guess. We all know about the heated debate that still continues in PA over this exact same topic, but I'm scratchin my head here on whether or not we should follow suit?? I guess I say that because obviously what we've been doing in the past is not working. DEC will turn around and say that it's because of "2 harsh winters in a row" but we're in friggin New York man!! We ALWAYS have harsh winters... it's starting to become a passing the buck type of canned response for their lack of intelligent game management of the land. It's frustrating to go out and see nothing but does and basket racks with the occasional "good 8 point". I'm a meat hunter first and foremost, but I also like having the challenge of outsmarting a big mature whitetail, and when the numbers of those big boys are so low it's just a losing battle from opening day. The rut almost means nothing here. There are so many does to every buck that the idea of a buck moving all over to find a receptive doe is almost a myth here. They don't have to move far... chances are they only have to move about 500 yds and they'll find an estrous doe!! So why get all hyped about the rut when there really isn't one here. Don't get me wrong they do rut up here but very different then what you see on t.v. or hear about further south where the ratio is a bit more in tact. Forget about rattling a buck in... you're more than likely to scare one off because it's an "unfamiliar sound" to them... again... a little exaggeration but still has some truth to it. So, just something to think about here... if your ratio is a good one... consider it a blessing! I'll be out dreaming about it! lol. Maybe one of these days that story I started this thread with will be a reality!  Stepping down off my soap box now. |
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mrjbigfoot
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Post by mrjbigfoot on Oct 16, 2005 10:46:36 GMT -5
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Post by Webejonesin2 on Oct 16, 2005 10:46:50 GMT -5
Good one GB, was starting off to think you got one. Good story anyhow. Scenerio(sp) sounds like over here, Vt has just implemented pt restriction here, So it'll be the first year for it. The effects are unknown, being if it's going to amount to anything or not. If it wrks all the more power to the state. Hopefully it wrks. |
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timhicks
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Post by timhicks on Oct 16, 2005 11:53:52 GMT -5
Man you had me pumped,,,I was thinking  That is the same problem we have here Jason. The place we have has numerous deer I think maybe to many does. The bioligist came out and did a survey and said we had about a deer for every six acres. Maybe more. I wanted to bust a few does in early bow season and could have already. Shinn said no does this year lets give them one more year. I have never seen deer so skiddish though. The place was just bought about 5 years ago ,they had poached and shot everything that walked.The place across the street where I used to trap and deer hunt was kinda like a sanctuary, I got spoiled. I would drive in checking traps and knew what time the deer were moving when the rut was starting. As much Karma ,Good Karma you have good things will come to you. A person who does great things ,somtimes it takes awhile, But it will all be great, sometimes the things we dont think are the best work out to be better.Itsa hard to type what I am trying to say ,but what goes around comes around. This can work either way. Tim  |
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rjet
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Post by rjet on Oct 16, 2005 12:05:03 GMT -5
Point restrictions are fine and dandy........for a while. Arkansas went to a 3pt (on one side) rule quite a few years back. Was great because it used to be if there was any antler showing it was down. We started seeing better bucks in time but now they seem to be on the decrease. A few years back I had a great hunt, i heard a buck grunt and called him in. There were 2 bucks after a doe when this happened. First one I saw was a huge spike, deer was probaby 3-4 years old and was illegal. I got the 8pt with a 5 yard shot. As soon as I shot the 8pt the spike was on the does trail and am sure he bred her.
I worked with a guy (Clyde) who had a lease out in west texas and the landowner was wanting to get some bigger racked bucks (so he could jack the price way up). Clyde and his buddies were told to kill all the does they wanted and I believe it was anything under an 8pt. So they did and it worked. A few years later they lost that lease due to not being able to afford it.
Point I am trying to make I guess is if a state goes to some sort of point restrictions (if doing for big bucks, which I really thing they are to bring in the big bucks$$) then they have to think it through and have a changing program. Arkansas screwed up by not making changes in time to their program, and a lot of hutners are getting fed up with it.
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mrjbigfoot
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Post by mrjbigfoot on Oct 16, 2005 13:02:01 GMT -5
I also saw a big monster that was killed on Long Island last year but I can't remember where I saw it at. I'd have to guess that Long Island is mostly developed land so it made me wonder just where in the heck that big boy was hiding at...
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Post by THE GOB-FATHER on Oct 16, 2005 13:36:02 GMT -5
Point restrictions are fine and dandy........for a while. Arkansas went to a 3pt (on one side) rule quite a few years back. Was great because it used to be if there was any antler showing it was down. We started seeing better bucks in time but now they seem to be on the decrease. I got the 8pt with a 5 yard shot. As soon as I shot the 8pt the spike was on the does trail and am sure he bred her. A few years later they lost that lease due to not being able to afford it. Point I am trying to make I guess is if a state goes to some sort of point restrictions (if doing for big bucks, which I really thing they are to bring in the big bucks$$) then they have to think it through and have a changing program. All great points and things to ponder in such a state of QDM. Speaking of QDM, I do believe that it is becoming a "stereotype" in it's own terminology. In my opinion, Quality Deer Management should stand for not only optimal horn growth, but more importantly "Optimal Herd Standards". In other words managing the population on a carrying capacity and sex ratio level. The exact philosophy each of us hunters all only wish we could "control". We need to give feedback and have our local officials LISTEN to what us hunters that are on the front lines are saying. We are our best allie and worst enemy in all of this and being able to sort out the difference is key. I'd like to just see a healthy herd throughout the state. Not an over population or under as well. Mother nature has a good way of evening things out and sometimes our game officials screw that up royally. My opinion is that our DEC has feared that thinning out does would reduce the ability to reproduce significantly. I think quite the contrary. Without bucks there would be no reproduction as well. There is two sides to every coin. We've had problems in the Norther Tier of New York where you couldn't even harvest a doe at all... it's no wonder the ratio is so skewed up there now. But they have been changing in that regard and it's about time but I fear it's too little too late and for this generation, we may never see the resulting factors of QDM... at least here and in my lifetime... but then again, maybe just maybe they'll listen.  |
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Post by THE GOB-FATHER on Oct 16, 2005 13:43:21 GMT -5
Mrbig... you're right... there are some bruisers up here I agree whole-heartedly with that statement... but again it's a few and far between. Pics of them are not going to tell the story completely. You'll see them plastered all over the internet only for bragging rights more than anything but when you get to the root of the situation the story pans out a little further. I've hunted in MANY different areas all across New York state and for the most part you'll usually find that the baskets are the ones being harvested.
Our hunting lands are very DENSE with hunters. Private lands are starting to become just like the public land as well (although not as bad but getting there). When you have that many hunters the mentality starts to become... If it's brown its down! Which I've been forced to adhere to. Problem is, if you don't shoot it the guy hunting just down the way will! Plus, you know with this mentality that a basket 6 or 8 might be one of the "better" bucks on the property so take it while you can. It's not only a fault on our DEC but also we as hunters have to make the right move too.
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mrjbigfoot
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Post by mrjbigfoot on Oct 16, 2005 13:56:46 GMT -5
I hear ya GF! When I used to hunt down in the hills along the Ohio river, I had to put up with all the people that own 5 acre lots bordering big woods country that they all poach their way into & it was exactly how you described it. If you didn't shoot a deer that was walking down a ridge, you'd hear the next guy a couple hundred yards down start shooting at it and if a deer was running down the ridges or hollows you'd hear a chain reaction of shooting (and obvious missing) that would make it sound like you were in a war zone...  I can remember going to the check in station & seeing guys with everything from yearling does to button bucks and acting like they had trophies. That was back when Ohio didn't have many deer & odds were against even seeing one let alone killing one. |
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Post by trkyhntr on Oct 16, 2005 16:33:48 GMT -5
You want to see bigger bucks, shoot off all the does! That what the former deer biologist Dr. Gary Alt fed us! Since that crap started in 2000, we all but decimated the freaking deer herd. I remember in 2000 when this crap started it was nothing to see 15 to 20 deer a day while hunting the rifle season. Last year I saw 6 freaking deer the whole two weeks. That is on public land. Then the Game Commission finally admitted to making a mistake in giving too many doe tags and cut them back this year. Big Whoop!
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Post by THE GOB-FATHER on Oct 16, 2005 18:46:39 GMT -5
See, that's what I'm saying trk... I want to get to understand what's working and what's not in regards to "restrictions". I know it's the preverbial "question of all time" but let's disect this topic a bit further and get to the meat and potatoes of why some states have better quality deer vs. ones that don't. What are we doing wrong, or are we doing something wrong in relation to deer management? Is there something we can do to change this pattern or are we doomed? What and how long will it take? These are all questions I think can be answered to some degree but when it comes right down to it who's willing to MAKE IT HAPPEN!?
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Post by trkyhntr on Oct 16, 2005 20:06:40 GMT -5
We do have antler restrictions here in Pa. In my area it's 3 points on one side which is ok by me. I was used to shooting scrub bucks all the time. Now i'm waiting for Mr. Big to come around. In another part of the state, I think the northwestern part, it's a 4 point on one side.
Whenever I watch hunting shows on TV, these guys that manage their own land, i've noticed they said the same thing about Gary Alt was talking about. Take so many does to even out the deer ratio. Yea, it may be easy to do on a couple thousand acres, but trying to do it on a whole state may be a different ball game. There's certain areas in this state that has more deer than other areas. That's how they messed up in the first place. They upped the doe liscenses all over the state instead of just certain areas. And that was over a course of 5 years. So who knows, maybe New York will learn from all our dumb mistakes.
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Post by Phishy on Oct 16, 2005 22:05:05 GMT -5
Those two statements are very powerful and perhaps some of the main reasons for the problems being addressed here.
subjects like this get my ole noodle just a going....
who here will disagree that WI has some big deer shot every year? are you familiar where a vast majority of these bruisers come from?? The SW portion of the state, yeah sure there's a lot of big deer scattered all over, but time in and time out year after year the most consistent place to take a B&C is near Buffalo Co. Why??
Private land, difficult hunting terrain, and lots of QDM
Now lets head over to Vilas Co. A big deer there is in the 130 category, nothing to scoff at but why such a big difference, lots of public land, and the private ownership is fragmented into small tracts, and a huge influx of hunters, the "if its brown its down" mentality prevails.
One last stop, duh nort, vast unbroken pieces of land, and relatively low hunter density, yet the brown it's down mentality exists , but there are big deer in this area due to the relatively low hunting pressure. some places never even get hunted other than opening weekend, this i have experienced first hand, i 've actually heard people complain that the deer aren't moving because there aren't enough people to push the deer.
the DNR is trying to manage the deer herd in a "statewide manner, there seems to be a lot of interest slowly building for managing the herd for quality, but to do that we need to change folks idea that there needs to be 30-35 deer per square mile, people also want to see lots of deer. which i think is the third big obstacle- how do you get an entire state of hunters with different hunting traditions to agree. some folks only hunt two days a year, opening weekend of the nine day gun season, then blame somebody for not seeing any deer, or folks like my self that if given the chance will hunt just about everyday from bow season through gun and back into bow season. I haven't a clue what the answers might be, but something needs to be done
Would i like to see a quality management tried, you bet, i also think we need to thin the does out, there is a lot of opposition to that as well, the Earn a Buck(essentially a person needed to shoot a doe to gain the privilege to shoot a buck) program was shut down before it was even given a chance.
just adding a bit more fuel to consider on this topic
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Post by trkyhntr on Oct 17, 2005 4:48:32 GMT -5
The DCNR is what started this whole mess to begin with. They said there's too many deer in the state forests. The deer were eating all the under growth, you know the future trees. They were worried about their timber sales in the future. That's what the state makes most of their money on, timber sales. Then when all the hunters were complaining about the increase in killing all the does, Gary Alt stepped in and said, "You want bigger bucks, kill off the does!" Then that sparked an interest in all the hunters. And you know the rest.
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mrjbigfoot
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Post by mrjbigfoot on Oct 17, 2005 6:30:38 GMT -5
Ohio has always taken a County by County approach to deer management. They have always limited the number of deer that can be taken by County. We've never had antler restrictions but I wouldn't be against it. Ohio's deer heard has gone through some peaks & valleys along the way based on how the limits were set by Counties and/or how good or bad the weather is/was during gun season. We also learned that a 2 week gun season tends to make a lot bigger dent in the population and we haven't had one of those in quite a few years. The way they're doing it appears to be working overall because there are a lot of quality bucks being taken & the population is at an all time high. Ohio doesn't do the designated area deal like NY where you only get approval to hunt in a given area. The whole state is open with the exception of some special wildlife refuges where you can apply to be a part of a hunt in those areas if you want to hunt them. I like it the way Ohio does it.
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